p.8d Are Giants, or Goliath proof that the Nephilim survived the flood?
Bible: "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." (Genesis 6:4)
‘in those days; and also after that’ are the two terms we are to understand to arrive at the correct conclusion. The words "in those days" refer back to the beginning of chapter 6 (verses one and two). That is, in the days when the rebellious sons of God (the Bible does seem to speak of them as angelic creatures) invaded earth and took wives from daughters of men forcibly. The Hebrew language describes a violent taking for themselves, not a cooperation from the women. The statement "and also after that" means in between the time this began until the Flood that ended this evil activity. Noah (nor Moses) were not describing this continuing after the flood. This was up to the flood, which was the judgment, the ending of the 120 years God gave mankind to repent.
Noah is describing the pre-Flood period only. Noah lived 350 more years and he saw no giants like the Nephilim that existed before the flood. Nowhere are nephilim mentioned, not by Noah after the flood, and not by Moses, nor by Joshua or Caleb, and certainly not the Lord. The point is, could the spies have lied? Of course they could. could people be taking their words are truth when they are not, of course they can. It was those who were in unbelief who did not want to fight that said they were nephilim, they were cowards not having faith.
The only time it is mentioned is by the spies ( this will be specifically covered as we go through the Scripture later) It was God who punished Israel from listening to their lies and had them wander 40 years (more on this when Numbers 13 is covered)
If these nephilim came from one of Noah’s descendants then approximately 1/3 mankind would be infected and there would have been no way to wipe them out because Israel would be affected also.
They (whoever ‘the nephilim’ were) were incarcerated in Tartarus for their violation according to Scripture.
2 Peter 2:4-6 “ For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly ” He connects them directly to Noah,.
The fact is that there are different angelic species. We know the Bible distinguishes at least three; Cherubim, Seraphim and Angels.
Further explained in Jude 6-7, “ And the angels who did not keep their proper domain , but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; and then makes correlation to Sodom and Gomorrah, those who practice sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh”
II Peter 2:4-5 speaks of the confinement of these angels (sons of God) as being Tartarus, which distinguished from the Abyss. The Abyss is a section of Sheol or Hades, which is a temporary place of confinement but the sons (angels) that are confined in Tartarus. This is a permanent confinement of these certain angels, a necessity so they could not repeat the sin again with women after the Flood. In his explanation Heiser has departed from an accepted Biblical view (one of many) to a mythological view. That their offspring continued or returned again, which he says became demons when they died. (Whichever one identifies these one time heavenly offenders of mankind, the Bible says they went directly to Tartarus and are kept there until they are brought before the Lord in the Great White Throne Judgment and then will be put in their permanent residence, the lake of fire.)
The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates the word Nephilim into the Greek word gigantes, “giants.” This is not a direct translation; a word for word, but instead the idea, a characteristic of the Nephilim. That it may have been used for a feared giant, a warrior, a titan in Latin.
Nephilim in Hebrew does not mean a giant, such as exclusively in stature no matter what the Septuagint says. Heiser states “Anakim giants are the sinister spawn of the nephillim, they are their offspring .” (p. 64-65 of Supernatural)
Heiser “ The Nephilim bloodlines were not like the peoples of the disinherited nations. Genesis 10 clearly casts the human inhabitants of those nations as owing their existence to Yahweh, as they descended from Noah’s sons and, therefore, Noah—all the way back to Adam, Yahweh’s first human son.
The Nephilim bloodlines had a different pedigree. They were produced by other divine beings . They did not belong to Yahweh, and he therefore had no interest in claiming them. Coexistence was not possible with the spawn of other gods . (Unseen Realm)
Can Heiser point to any Bible evidence that the Canaanites or any tribe in Canaan was half human hybrids like those said in Gen.6 offspring of the sons of God, the Nephilim? How is this position that these giants came from a certain lineage, Anak’s. For Heiser also states “Despite their unusual size, the biblical text is clear that the giant clan members were human .” (Unseen Realm) Question: how can they be human and then become demons when they die?
Heiser instead says the giants of the Bible (these giant clans) were not unusually tall, according to the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scroll readings for the Goliath story, Goliath was actually 6 feet 6 inches tall.
What else is said of these (Giants) TALL PEOPLE in the bible?
Deut. 1:28 “ The people are greater and taller than we; the cities are great and fortified up to heaven; moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakim there ." V.2:10-11 (The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants, like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim. ”
Heiser can only argue from outside the Bible on this new myth he concocted from the other myths and legends. For when we go to the Bible is tells us the truth. There is no mention of Nephilim in the related scriptures[s] Neh. 9:26 “An d brought them into the land Which You had told their fathers To go in and possess. So the people went in And possessed the land. ”
There is no mention any type of interaction repeated by the sons of God as was done in Gen 6, nor of their offspring to explain the existence of these giants as not from man.
So let’s see if there the giants were actually nephilim the Israelites confronted. Numbers 13:33 KJV “And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.”
Numbers 13:33: “And there we sawthe Nephilim, (הַנְּפִילִים)the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim ; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. '’
Again it is not possible to be nephilim since they were ALL destroyed in the flood with mankind.
The Septuagint states, “ all the people whom we saw in it are men of extraordinary stature.”
Where are all the nephilim?
Joshua 15:8 KJV “And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:”
“There are cities great and walled up to heaven: moreover we saw there the sons of the giants.” (Septuagint Deut.1:28)
Joshua 12 “And Og king of Basan, was left of the giants, and Moses smote him, and destroyed him” (Septuagint)
Where are all the ‘nephilim giants’ that the spies claimed in Numbers 13? The whole land is supposed to be filled with them.’ Notice Joshua nor any other do not call them nephilim, they are called this by the spies that were fearful and unfaithful; and there is a good explanation for this. It will become apparent as we unravel this.
Where do we find the giants mentioned? In spurious writings.
Judith 16 “For the mighty one did not fall by the young men, neither did the sons of the Titans smite him, nor high giants set upon him: but Judith the daughter of Merari weakened him with the beauty of her countenance.”
Wisdom 14 “For in the old time also, when the proud giants perished, the hope of the world governed by thy hand escaped in a weak vessel, and left to all ages a seed of generation. For blessed is the wood whereby righteousness cometh.”
Baruch 3:24 “There were the giants famous from the beginning, that were of so great stature, and so expert in war. Those did not the Lord choose, neither gave he the way of knowledge unto them: But they were destroyed, because they had no wisdom, and perished through their own foolishness .”
This statement contradicts Enoch, and Enoch contradicts the Bible. If any of these records were true they would agree, not disagree. Many falsely claim Enoch is their author of the “Book of Enoch” when it was likely written sometime during the last few centuries B.C., (or after) having no connection to a book Noah would have possessed on the ark.
Overview of Israel entering the land
Heiser implies that when Joshua and the Israelites were taking over Canaan, that they were fighting not just the Canaanite people, but also partly divine beings who were fathered by the offspring of the nephilim. Where does the Bible teach Nephilim had offspring? It says nothing of this important point in Scripture history. This becomes an argument from silence not by evidence.
Heiser states, “My view is that it wasn’t indiscriminate at all, and that wholesale genocide wasn’t the point of the conquest. Rather, the command of to “devote to destruction” (herem/kherem) was focused on the giant clans (denoted by words like Anakim, Rephaim, and, occasionally, Amorites). That is, I believe the rationale for the herem was to eliminate the Anakim, the vestiges of the nephilim (Num 13:32-33)…. raised up by rival gods hostile to Yahweh (and thus their own purpose was to prevent Yahweh’s people from kickstarting the kingdom of God on earth). Other people were certainly killed, since the giant clans were scattered among the general population, but I contend the conquest rationale was framed by the urgency to eliminate the nephilim bloodlines. This is textbook “mythic history” (actual historical events framed by, and articulated in light of, theological rationale / beliefs).” (article “ The Giant Clans and the Conquest, ”
No it is just myths, sorry but you have bought into them and merged them with Scripture. It was not just Anakim, Rephaim for we read in Josh 3:9-10 Joshua tells Israel, the living God “ He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites . Then in v.10-11 “ what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were on the other side of the Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. And as soon as we heard these things, our hearts melted; neither did there remain any more courage in anyone because of you, for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.”
Heiser contends in his book the Unseen Realm and elsewhere that the Israelite conquest wasn’t indiscriminate at all, and that wholesale genocide wasn’t the point of the conquest [s]. It was focused on eliminating only the giant clans (Anakim, Rephaim, and, occasionally, Amorites). Which are the vestiges of the nephilim (Num 13:32-33). Peoples raised up by rival gods (the Elohim) hostile to Yahweh whose purpose was to prevent Yahweh’s people from establishing the kingdom of God on earth.
The bible says otherwise Deut. 9:4:“it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you.”
Lev 18:24-25 “ all these the nations are defiled , which I am casting out before you. For the land is defile” It was the way they lived along with their false gods.
Heiser instead sees the whole of the OT with this myth/doctrine he made and inserted, to be a struggle of the Elohim gods against gods people. But nowhere are the Nephilim mentioned. The word giants are found for certain individuals but that does not mean they were offspring of Nephilim. And nowhere does God speak of these giants everywhere in the land, as nephilim.
Scripture tells us Og and Sihon, king of Gilead, were feared warriors prior to the Israel entering into Canaan. Deut .29:6-9 “ And when you came to this place, Sihon king of Heshbon and Og king of Bashan came out against us to battle, and we conquered them. We took their land and gave it as an inheritance to the Reubenites, to the Gadites, and to half the tribe of Manasseh”
Scripture describes Og as a giant. His bed was over 14 feet long, and over 6 feet wide, and it was made of iron. Iron which would be needed to support a large body, which itself weighed hundreds of pounds. (again Heiser denies him as being so large) Og is named as the last of the giants who was killed before they went into the land. And He is not called or associated with nephilim.
Then we have Jewish legends that may have influence on these stories, for example in the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel on Num. 21:35-36, it says that " Og having observed that the camp of the Israelites extended six miles, he went and tore up a mountain six miles in its base, and put it on his head, and carried it towards the camp, that he might throw it on the Israelites and destroy them; but the word of the Lord prepared a worm, which bored a hole in the mountain over his head, so that it fell down upon his shoulders: at the same time his teeth growing out in all directions, stuck into the mountain, so that he could not cast it off his head. Moses, (who was himself ten cubits high,) seeing Og thus entangled, took an axe ten cubits long, and having leaped ten cubits in height, struck Og on the ankle bone, so that he fell and was slain ."
This account has the distance from the sole of Og's foot to his ankle was thirty cubits in length! I give this as a very slight specimen of rabbinical comment. I could quote places in the Talmud in which Og is stated to be several miles high! This relation about Og I suppose to be also an historical note added by a subsequent hand.” (from Adam Clarke's Commentary)
Myths mixed with Scripture do not help clarify this subject.
Understanding Num. 13:32-33: “ And they gave the children of Israel a bad report (evil - a false and exaggerated report) of the land which they had spied out, saying, " The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight."
When the spies returned from their discovery, some 250 miles within 40 days. Ten of them reported that Canaan was populated by giants who were nephilim whose cities were behind impregnable walls. Joshua and Caleb tried to have the people obey God but the people instead believed the 10.
Heiser writes repeating their false exaggeration “The land was occupied by people in walled cities— some of whom were giants descended from the Nephilim”
The Bible has written “ all the people that we saw in it are of great height,” which would mean the majority. We should not embellish the story like the 10 spies did. They exaggerated the numbers and who they were and used it as an excuse to not go into battle. The ten spies spread fear, and Israel’s entrance was delayed. The people came to a decision by fear in which they rejected Moses’ leadership, and Gods promise and refused to enter and possess the land.
Let’s make sense of this, we need to understand that the spies brought back a bad, or “evil” report (Hebrew dibbah, meaning “to slander, whisper, or defame”) they claimed that the large people they saw, known as the sons of Anak were descended from the Nephilim (Num. 13.1-2, 33; Joshua 11:22).
They did see some giant people, (3 of them are named) They reported seeing children of Anak, or the Anakim, calling them Nephilim (Numbers 13:33). The sons of Anak; whose names are given, (Numbers 13:21-24); and there were three of them: Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai were in Hebron. Some see the words in parentheses—“the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim” (Numbers 13:33, NASB)
But they were NOT Nephilim for we read that the report was slander. The spies witnessed a few giant people in Canaan and their fear gripped them, they either assumed they were Nephilim or they purposely said this to avoid battle.
Num. 14:36-37 “ and the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD .”
Notice it says about the land. An evil report consisted of lying, saying they were Nephilim living there when they were just large men; because they were cowards.
God held Israel back from going into the land for 40 years. When they warred they did not defeat these giants in battles, why? Because they could not be found. When they said the land was filled with them it was not true. The fact is, they did not battle giants. The word for “giant” is rapha, or rephaim in the plural. Not Nephilim, they were not Nephilim even though the spies used this description to exaggerate the problem.
From the flood until the entering of Canaan
There is 500 year span inbetween the flood and these giants supposedly continuing in the land of Canaan; it would essentially be filled with them, considering how many Nephilim were produced in 120 years before the judgment of the flood. We read all except Noah’s family were corrupted (human DNA was corrupted by these foreign agents). This is essentially what the 10 spies were claiming they saw in Canaan.
There is also this problem to explain DNA from the Bible's Canaanites lives on in modern Arabs and Jews . We know there were a few large people called giants in the land but nephilim, no; and whole land filled with giants, no! There are irregular size people produced from the human gene pool, not just giants but dwarfs. Leviticus 21:16-20 addresses blemishes of the human condition cannot offer the bread of God; here we find dwarfs mentioned but not giants.
From Noah and his sons there developed different races of men, different sizes in the human gene pool. These giants came from the genes of Noah (not Nephilim) just as we have small people (Dwarfs) that came from the same genes. In fact the largest man alive, 8 feet 5 inches tall recently died.
It was from Noah's three sons and their wives that earth’s humanity was to be repopulated. Scripture says all of mankind started over coming from Noah’s children. Then not everyone is descended from Noah as Scripture says. How did the nasty Nephillim survived?
There are only a few basic options to claim the nephilim survived. That there was only a local flood (consider there were people the next area over) who were infected by this onslaught from heaven and were not judged by God. Or that one of Noah’s son were infected or that the Sons of God returned to make more nephilim (which Scripture has nothing to say on this). But Heiser says they were all incarcerated in tartarus which rules out this option.
Genesis 9:1 “And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, “Be fruitfuland multiply, and fill the earth (V.19) This rules out one of his sons being a secret nephilim.
Last that the nephilim survived because the flood was only local; which has numerous repercussions. That Scripture is inaccurate on the flood of the world and the same invasion in Gn.6 reoccurred and the Nephilim apparently succeeded. If Nephilim are determined by size back then, why not today? We still have giant men today
Clearly the opposition from the pagan inhabitants included some spiritual components to their animosity, but to say the rival Gods (instead of the peoples) physically opposed Gods will is just speaking where the Bible does not.
Of the two scriptures that mention Nephilim, (one being a false report of the spies), only two men, Joshua and Caleb trusted God to fulfill what he instructed (for them to take possession of the land); clearly the other 10 did not want to fight. Their false report influenced the nation whom were easily intimidated to enter the Promised Land by battling them, losing faith in God they turned against Moses for bringing them there. God responded to Moses, ‘ How long will these people treat me with contempt?… I will strike them down with a plague and destroy them ” (Num. 14:11). And He did. “‘ Now the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him bybringing a bad report of the land, those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the Lord.”
Lets read this encounter in context to understand what actually happened.
Num. 13:27-14:1 when they came back to Moses and Aaron , Then they told him, and said: "We went to the land where you sent us. It truly flows with milk and honey, and this is its fruit. Nevertheless the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there . The Amalekites dwell in the land of the South; the Hittites, the Jebusites, and the Amorites dwell in the mountains; and the Canaanites dwell by the sea and along the banks of the Jordan." Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, "Let us go up at once and take possession, for we are well able to overcome it." But the men who had gone up with him said, "We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we." And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, "The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight ."
Each of the statements, “All the men whom we saw in it are men of great stature” “the giants” and “ we were like grasshoppers ” were all terrible embellishments – meaning they were lies. They would have to be at least 10 ft. tall or more to make this accurate or as the book of Enoch said, hundreds of feet tall! But the prior scriptures say different.
First they say the inhabitants of the land are strong, the cities are protected and they saw the descendants of Anak. (To claim Anak is a nephilim, when there is no proof of this). The race of giants from Anak their father, and his father Arba their grandfather was one (Joshua 14:15, Joshua 15:13) Scripture mentions three separate groups of people who were living in Canaan at that time the Anakim, the Emim, and the Zamzummim. The descendants of Anak are not described as superhuman strength.
The Anakim are part of a tribe of people, called the “Rephaim,” who inhabited Canaan, Edom, Moab, and Ammon. In Abraham’s time, c. 1950 B.C., Chedorlaomer defeated them. At the period of the conquest, 1440 B.C., Og, king of Bashan, is said to have been the last remaining of this race. Deut. 3:11 “ For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants.” “the remnant of the giants ” (Josh 12:4;13:12)
Emim inhabited the country of the Moabites (Gen. 14:5) that are pictured as “great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim” (Deut. 2:10). Zamzummim were also a giant race inhabiting the land of Ammon (Deut. 2:20).
Let’s read what Moses has to say, Deut. 9:1-3 "Hear, O Israel: You are to cross over the Jordan today, and go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourself, cities great and fortified up to heaven,a people great and tall, the descendants of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you heard it said, 'Who can stand before the descendants of Anak ?' "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.”
Nothing about nephilim!
We read in Josh. 15:14 “Caleb drove out the three sons of Anak from there: Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai, the children of Anak .” Also mentioned later in Judg. 1:10 “Then Judah went against the Canaanites who dwelt in Hebron. (Now the name of Hebron was formerly Kirjath Arba.) And they killed Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai.”
Three giants are named, not whole cities, not everyone in the land. That is the difference of the Bible’s actual record and Heiser’s and others that embellish an already embellished account. Their account was an exaggeration and a distortion of their observation.
How does Heiser and others arrive at them being Nephilim, because of the one time the spies called them this? But when we look deeper into the details of this event we find a very different story.
To recount what is said
The only time nephilim are mentioned is by the faithless spies' statement in Numbers 13:33 when they said they saw giants, claiming they were nephilim. The fact is with over 10 battles (possibly 12-13) by Joshua taking over the land the supposed giants the 10 spies claimed were everywhere are not found, no mention of fighting these abundant giants everywhere in the land.
Scripture records: When they eventually entered the land of Canaan and through their many battles, there is no mention of seeing any Nephilim, they did not encounter them, which is a significant detail.
The Lord was angered against these spies for they committed a moral evil. Num. 14:31-38 “But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised. But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness. According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection . I the LORD have spoken this; I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.' " And the men whom Moses sent to spy out the land, who returned and made all the congregation complain against him by bringing a bad report of the land, those very men who brought the evil report about the land, died by the plague before the LORD. But Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh remained alive, of the men who went to spy out the land”
Saying the land is filled with giants was a lie to have them not battle them. Num. 32:13 “So the LORD's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.”
Lest go further into the details given about the conquests and whom Israel faced after the 40 years.
p.8e Joshua’s wars