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| Pt.2 PURGATORY or saints in heaven? The idea of purgatory and prayers for the souls in a place of cleansing purgatory was not known in the church to until A.D. 600 when Pope Gregory the Great made claims about a third state—a place for the purification of the souls of those WHO DIED to be purified before their entrance into heaven. It was not accepted as a dogma of the Catholic Church, however, until 1459 at the Council of Florence. "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent" (Catechism 1030-1031). The concept of purgatory led to the unbiblical Catholic doctrine of prayers for the dead. The Roman Catholics are taught to not accept the bible, that tells us who cleanses us from all sin that we must go to purgatory to suffer. That when a believer dies he is with the Lord where is the Lord? In heaven. While Shamoun teaches this , he is also going against his ROMAN CATHOLIC belief that Sys otherwise. Paul first explains in 2 Cor. 5:1-8”if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens . Verse 8 tells us, “ we are always confident knowing that while we are home in the body we are absent from the Lord. And he goes on to say to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. “We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” V. 10 “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body” that is not anywhere else but before his throne in heaven. Saints in heaven Shamoun states, “The saints in heaven are not dead, they have died on earth and alive in heaven.” Yes, their spirit/soul is alive, not their body which has died. This is his CONVOLUTED semantical argument he presents causes confusion (1 Cor. 14:33 and Jms.3:16 addresses this. The question everyone needs to ask is NOT whether they are dead or alive but, can they hear our prayers – for they as saints cannot answer any of our prayers so why direct any to them). It is just as the Bible says, we have one mediator between God and man, our only high priest who is both God and man who is who is in the body at the right hand of God who alone hears all our prayers to answer them (Rom.8:34). Not many! Who alone listens and can answer. We are not to pray to any saint in heaven who has left their body by death on earth, or anyone taken to heaven alive like Enoch or Elijah. We have only one mediator. If you are born again you are a pilgrim on earth heading for your permanent home in heaven. death is your graduation day from all your trials tribulations and sufferings. But not ACCORDING TO Roman Catholicism’s traditions, their teaching. The Bible teaches that in Heb.1:3 “after he (Jesus) purged our sins he sat down at the right hand of God”Heb.10:11-12 A high priest never sat down unless his task was completed. If one is not righteous enough to go to heaven, they go to Hell, not purgatory. Obviously it’s not a personal righteousness but the righteousness of Christ we are graciously given and clothed in. 2 Cor. 5:21 "we have the righteousness of Christ by faith." Here how Shamoun begins his flawed argument as proof to challengers. Using MANY ASSUMPTIONS NOT from Scripture, instead he MISUSES the Scripture that he bases his beliefs on.The absenceof Scriptural Support for purgatory is overwhelming.Heb. 2:10 tells us they arebrought to glory, their sufferings are on earth, not more in purgatory. How do the Roman church knows which one becomes a saint in heaven and is not sent to purgatory? The Roman church decides. But who told them? Is a person holy (enough) through the testimonies of people who knew them to petition the bishop to open an investigation during their life, or after their death. The Vatican, the Pope decides. Contrary to all this, The Bible, God has already decided. Shamoun’s explanations GO DEEP INTO The SHADOWS than into the light. Shamoun: Begins his rebuttal “ Let me repeat it. The Muslim tells me he'll be a Christian if I can show him where Jesus says I am God or worship me in those exact words. So now I'm going to play the role of Muslim because that's the game you're playing with me. Show me where Jesus says I am God in those exact words. Okay. He doesn't say in those exact words, I am God .”(Sam Shamoun Explaining The INTERCESSION Of SAINTS ) Biblically, JESUS does say he is God by saying he is the I AM, and makes clear if you do not believe this you will die in your sins. This identification is said more than once in various ways. Regardless of this, Shamoun Says, “ I don't need to show you an explicit verse where I'm told to pray to the saints in heaven or Mary because the principles are there in the Bible that led the church before you existed to the same conclusion. See what I did? That's what I'm trying to learn though. So,...I'm trying to learn from you because I Okay. I'll help you. I'll help you.”
I disagree, you need to show verses, not just principles. To prove what is not explicitly taught in the bible. “Now, now that you agreed with me that you don't need to find something black and white because that's not how the Bible is written, but you look at the Bible, see how it's written, and then derive principles and arrive at conclusions. Now, we're talking.” (the Bible is written in words, and concepts, called doctrines to understand, as teachings from God, not just principles to live by, what is written in black and white is clear on this topic. To say he does not need to show a verse is thoroughly wrong, he does not because he cannot.) He does not answer why it took hundreds of years later purgatory was invented. Saying:“Go to Ephesians 6:1 19 and 20. Here are the principles that led theEphesians 6.19-20 | First Principlechurch before I existed, before you existed. Those who knew the apostles were appointed by the apostles, their successors were given the scriptures to preserve.” (Here he reveals his reinterpretation of the Word. For there are no apostolic successors, none were appointed; which according to Catholicism is the Pope.) He claims, “Those individuals came to the conclusion based on these verses, saints are perfected. They're alive and they pray for us so we can ask their intercession .” (It does not say anywhere to pray to ask them to intercede. He is applying his own meaning to the Word. “Okay. Ephesians 6:17 to20. And take the element of salvation, the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. Pray at all times in the spirit, meaning in union with the spirit. Let spirit guide you to pray with all prayer and supplication. To that end, keep alert with all perseverance making supplication for all the saints. So we are commanded to pray for all believers.” (This is spoken to All BELIEVERS ON earth, not to those in heaven, Paul is instructing on the armor for the believers on earth, there is no need for the armor in heaven where they’re safe. He is completely mismanaging the Scripture's point, as Paul is asking to pray for him to make known the gospel while in chains. “ The principle before you jump the gun say, "Oh yeah, but they're dead. We'll get there." So we need to supplicate pray for all the saints and also for me that utterance may be given me and opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which I am ambassador in chains.” Being aware what the Scripture actually says. While they can generally pray for us, we are NOT told to pray TO them at all. So his argument is completely moot. James 5.13-20 | Second Principle Okay. I'm gonna read it for you. You don't need to so you don't lose connection. Those among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save that sick man, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he's committed sins, he'll be forgiven. So,
here's another principle. elders who are appointed to oversee the flock
can pray for you and I if we're sick and anoint us with the oil of the
people and if we've sinned we confess it to the elders and God will then
take our confession and the prayers of the elders and heal us. So here
we have believers praying for the well-being and the forgiveness of
Christians. Let me finish it though. Therefore, confess your sins to one
another and pray for one another. Confess your sins to one another. Pray
for one another that you may be healed.” (again this is not an elders prayer in heaven, for they are not sinning and there or need to be healed there. In fact all those who are, saints in heaven has been cleansed by Christ blood. nowhere does this imply we pray TO THEM! “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Let me repeat that part again…. the more you walk in fellowship with spirit, the less you sin, the moreBpowerful your prayers to God. Because sin hinders your prayers. And I'll establish that. I'll give you the proof.” ( which again proves it is ABOUT THOSE ALIVE ON EARTH, NOT THOSE IN Heaven. Furthermore, Prayer is not dependent on our power but God’s power in answering. Sin hinders our prayers from being answered by God. This is about the elders in the church on earth. Did the elders all die to be with the person who needs the prayer? This such a flawed argument on so many levels. Who then is sick in heaven? That they pray for them to be healed? He then uses “Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves. And he prayed fervently that it might not rain. …for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. prays again and the heaven gave rain.So he concludes, with which I find very relative to what Shamoun isteaching in a different aspect, “My brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that ever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul.” He concludes“So God uses you and works through you to save souls from death and cover a multitude of sins . So here's the principle we just established. I got a few more. Someone who walks with the spirit more obediently sins less. His powers become more. His prayers become more powerful and effectual than someone in sin who's not repented.” Now, here's the proof.” Let me point out, that he is presenting by a distorted principle a man centered doctrines and giving the power and glory to man, which narcissist do. His Principles are like putty, as he molds them into a false meaning that fits the Roman Catholic view that invented a purgatory hundreds of years later with their accompanied indulgences. It is not contained in the Scripture that is why he is misapplying principles. Scripture speaks of one giving the truth, which is the Scripture used to bring one back into fellowship. Shamoun: Psalm 66:18. Are you ready? Proof Of Second Principle Yep….If I had cherished iniquity,in my heart, the Lord would not have listened. Did you understand that principle? Yes. If you are desiring sin and you're harboring sin and you're in sin, your prayers become less and powerful. The less you sin, the more you obey, the more powerful your prayers. Keep that inmind.” “We've established two things. Christians are to pray for one another . If they love the Lord, love one another. And a righteous servant of the Lord who submits to the Lord, his prayers become more powerful and bring results whether healing or salvation.” God brings the result as he answers prayers according to his will. Yes, Christians are to pray for one another on earth. (Again, we do not pray to Saints in heaven to have them hear our needs. AND, We are instructed to pray to the only mediator, Christ. Ps. 49:7-9 “None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him .” He then cites Revelation 8 3:5 Okay. Now watch this. And another angel, Revelation 8 3:5, came and stood at the altar with a golden sensor. And he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne. So notice, here's an angel before the heavenly altar. He's got incense to offer to God and the prayers of the saints. He's carrying the prayers of believers to God with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne. …he's offering the prayers of believers.” Again, these are not showing believer’s on earth praying to the saints in heaven which he has purposely distorted and has not addressed. His conclusion that he is so confident is that “So, so far, I'm going to ask you a question. We've established that we pray for one another and the more righteous you are, the less sinful you are, the more powerful your prayers and God takes your prayers to heal and save people. We also establish you have at least angels in heaven that when you pray, they take your prayers to God and hand them over to God. You with me so far? Guest: Yes, sir.Okay, …. I don't know if what you u agree that when someone who's in Christ dies and he goes to heaven, that person is now sinless, no more sin, and he's perfect and complete” Shamoun is now contradicting a major teaching of the Roman church, that they all go to heaven and no longer need to suffer, for they’re sinlessness. Shamoun: “ Yes. Now with this principle, if they are alive in heaven and they are aware of what takes place on earth , and they are still part of the body, the church, the Lord, and while we're on earth, we pray for one another, is it possible, on earth, and their prayers would be even more powerful than yours and mine” Full stop: this is a wrong conclusion, it does not say anywhere they are aware of anything on earth of what people they know or do not know are asking, especially by hearing someone’s prayer, their voice or thoughts in heaven From this point Shamoun bounces around desperately drawing what he can from the Scripture as more proof, or, as ammunition for his opinion against any other contrary position proven in the Scripture. The Guest says: “I guess it's possible something that I don't have a clear picture of though in principle it's possible,Yes.” Shamoun:“Because I'm going to show you they're aware of things on earth. I just wanted you to follow me. Now another example of your prayers being hindered because of sin. He then brings up1 Peter 3:7.which has no direct application here. “But you have come to Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22- 24. And to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. This is in heaven, right? Guest: “ Correct.” Shamoun:“Heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels, and the church of the firstborn who enrolled in heaven. There's church there.… There's a church in heaven.(which means an assembly of believers who died to get there). “ before I finish it, what do we do in church? Besides listening to the word of God, we also minister to one another, pray for n one another, one another.” He then distorts it even further, as if the saints who are in heaven conduct themselves as we do on earth. (it means saints assembled there who are the church. We tithe, do they tithe in heaven too? Do we give the gospel there, or make disciples as we are to do on earth as the last command by Jesus?) “Yes, sir. So, if they're having church in heaven and they know they're connected to the church on earth because we're one body, born of one spirit, one body, born of one spirit, you think they stop praying for their brothers and sisters who are been still struggling in the flesh and persecution on earth?” We re spiritually one body but even on earth as one body we do not know what one is thinking, or do we pray to them. Why would we do this when we are in heaven? Guest: Probably unlikely. Shamoun:”I'm going to show you they do pray, but you get it right. If you have church in heaven,” like you have church on earth,( his wrong assumption) and we're one church, born of one spirit, one body, and Jesus says, "Love one another as I have loved you." And we pray for one another because we love one another. Then you've established the principle that the church there because their love is perfect for one another, that means their love is perfect for us on earth.And there is no greater display of perfect love than to pray for your brothers and sisters in need.” (They praying for us is not to be in the same category as US PRAYING TO THEM .)
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