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Pt. 3 praying to saints in heaven and purgatory Shamoun goes on… “ And do you want me now to show you that they're aware, those in heaven are aware of what takes place on earth and they're praying angels and those in heaven? Guest: “ Please. Okay.” “Let me get let me line let me lineup the verses so it can be easier. Now watch. All right. Here we go. All right.Now, … Jesus is talking Matthew 18.10 about little children physically and spiritually. Look what he says. He's warning those if you cause a child to stumble or offend a child or harm a child, whether physically or spiritually.Meaning, if you are a spiritual babe, someone who just came to faith…someone harms you, or if you're a physical child, both are included. Be careful because the Lord says, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels, always behold the face of my fatherwho is in heaven." Do you understand what our Lord is warning? Guest: Yes.” “They have angels assigned to them who stand before the father praying for them. So if you harm them, the angels will pray to the father to harm you.” The Scripture Says nothing like he claims on this. Does this in any way confirm what he is teaching of praying TO THE SAINTS in heaven! It does not. In fact, this is a terrible answer. All this talk is circumventing the answer to the topic, purposely. Nowhere does it say these angels pray for them, this is a huge assumption. Nor Do we find the saints in heaven Pray for those in purgatory? Which those in the roman catholicism pray for? No we do not. Shamoun has departed far from what the Scripture describe. “How do angels know what is happening to children on earth if they do not if they don't have awareness of taking place on earth? Meaning they do, right?” First: angels are supposed to know what is taking place on earth, especially ones assigned to each to us on the earth. The Bible do not say that angels pray for us; They are sent by God as ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation (Heb.1:14) ). As guardians they watch over believers (Ps. 91:11; Ps.34:7) protecting God’s people executing His commands. (Luke 1:26-38 to serve, protect, they carry out His will, even delivering messages when necessary.
“Okay. Now Luke 15 7 and 10. Luke 15:7 “Rejoice In Heaven and 10. Just so I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous `persons who need no repentance. So how do people in heaven know those who are repenting on earth if the Lord does not allow them to be aware of those who? Because it says there'll be more joy in heaven when one sinner repents. That makes sense. Luke 15:10.. That was verse 7. Just so Itell you, there is joy before the angelsof God over one sinner who repents. So now notice, angels are in heaven. They're aware of people on earth. They're aware when someone repents and they rejoice. A sinner is saved. (Cannot God tell them who got saved? 1 Peter 1:12 explains To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into. \ But healso says in verse 7, not just angels, in heaven. Now, we just read in Hebrews 12:22 to 24, those who've died in Christ, their spirits are there in heaven and they're perfect, right? So, that means they'll be aware of those who repent on earth and rejoice. Guest: Yes.” (Scripture specifically says“ joy before the angels of God”not the saints.But he ASSUMES this can be used to pray to the saints.]
He says another time, “Because YOU Ask someone on earth to pray for you. Then You're not going to God directly. They are perfected. They're not dead. They are sinless .” They are made perfect by christs blood not any other way, certainly not by indulgences used by the Catholic church, nor, other men’s good works applied to them. Shamoun: continues,” Oh, what about Abraham? Now, you're aware that Abraham died before Moses and the prophets and before the Old Testament, right? Guest: “yes. Shamoun: “ Okay. Now, and the and the saying of our Lord, the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham, This last argument is much like the previous ones except he has referred the scripture in a more logical. Luke 16:19-31 , Did not Moses die AND GO TO PARADISE where Abraham is located BEFORE this was Said. “The rich man, Lazarus died. Now, watch. The rich man sees Abraham and Lazarus. So, now notice they are aware of one another. The rich man knows that's Lazarus and that's Abraham. They're not the same.Which means when your spirit leaves your body, your spirit has a shape by which you are recognizable. So, I know it's you. You know it's me. So, we recognize one. So you notice that's Abraham says,"Father Abraham, have mercy on me and tell Lazarus to dip his finger in the water and cool my tongue cause I'm in torment in these flames." Now watch what Abraham says. But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you in your lifetime received good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things, but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." Now, did you realize that Abraham knew how they lived on earth? That was interesting. Did you see? He goes, "When you were on earth, you enjoyed life to the fullest. You're a heathenist and Lazarus suffered." Then notice what he says. "But now he has comforted here and you are in anguish." “Abraham, how did you know how they lived on earth? Because God made him aware.” That may be one possibility, or, more likely he knew his family -- they were just like him. And That’s why he is concerned for them, for they will come to the same place he is in. We can be sure that he was not seeing what is taking place on earth. “Now watch this. “ And besides all this, between us and you, a great chasm has been fixed in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us. We see each other, but there's a gulf and we can't cross. You're there. I'm here. Comfort it. How did Abraham know how they lived on earth? Well, he's definitely not more stupid than he was before he died. So, he's definitely got more knowledge. So, God let him know, right? Guest: “Yeah. (this is Abraham’s bosom for those that die in the faith, that was emptied and no longer functioning, after Christ rose, taken to be paradise in heaven when Christ ascended. It was still active when Jesus told this story. Shamoun emphasizes, “ Now, remember, Abraham died before Moses and the prophets and their scriptures, right? Guest: “Correct. Now, watch here. And he, the rich man,said, "Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers so he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment." So he's still aware his family's on earth. Yes he has a memory and is conscious but this has nothing to do with the point Shamoun is making, he distorts this simple explanation saying,“And he's aware the condition of his brethren that they're not believers. So send Lazarus to warn them about the place of torment. Now watch what Abraham says. But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets. (Again Jesus refers to the word of God not traditions made up LATER ON.)
Luke 16:22–23 is a story that compares a rich man who died and went to the torment side of Hades and a man named Lazarus who went to Abrahams paradise, on the other side of Hades: " The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off with Lazarus at his side." Contrary to Shamoun’s distortion, Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates that the afterlife immediately places souls in one of two destinations, torment or at peace because of their faith. Which is not in agreement with the Roman churches teching.
Let them hear them." Can I ask you a question? You ready for my question? Guest: : Yes, sir.” “Since Moses came 400 years after Abraham and the prophets came centuries later and left the scriptures, ow did Abraham know that on earth his descendants had the writings of Moses and the prophets? Because he's outside of our time, our time, but he's still in time in heaven, right?( this paradise is not heaven but under the earth) “ So that means God made him aware.”
(That is an assumption. Abraham was in paradise under the earth, not in heaven.)Shamoun says, “He's in the eternal realm now. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that realm, heaven, is still a place of time. But that's another story. Now, watch here. Now, notice what the rich man says. And he said, "No, Father Abraham. But if someone goes to them from the dead, they'll repent." He said to him, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." So, Abraham knew a lot even though he was no longer on earth. Right? Would not Moses and the prophets have gone to paradise on his death? Would he have met Abraham? This is NOT the eternal realm as he says but he also says he is in time (in heaven!) what we see Shamoun doing is throwing everything he can against the wall to see what will stick. Guest: Uhhuh. Shamoun further speculates. “…But now, Revelation 19, watch this. Verse one. Revelation 19 verse one. You ready? Guest: “Yes, sir. Shamoun: “Okay. I'm going to put it on the screen for people. ..”After this, I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven crying, "Hallelujah.Salvation and glory and power belong to our God." Why? Notice this verse two. “ For his judgments are true and just. He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication. And he has avenged on her the blood of his servants. So everyone in heaven, the multitude in heaven, saw God destroying them on earth. and rejoiced. That sounds like it. Well, it is Revelation 19 one and two.” Did they see this or are they told this? Even if they were allowed to see this one event (which is includes them, they were told would be Gods vengeance), it does not mean they see everything that is taking place throughout time and in the Tribulation. The Lord is showing John, who is describing this FUTURE EVENT.
Shamoun :“Final example I'm going to give you and if you have anything else, this is where the early church established by the apostles, the bishops appointed by the apostles, their successors, this is where they derive the belief in communion of saints. So when people don't accept it, then that's their problem .(actually his premise is wrong, the apostles did not appoint all THE BISHOPS in the church to SUCCEED them. “Here, one more final one for He uses you. Revelation 6 9-11.Souls In Heaven “ I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God” “ their souls are there in heaven before the heavenly altar because their bodies returned to the dust.”
The Scripture established they’re living in heaven, not that we on earth pray to them/ Remember this scripture is prophetic. “Their souls I saw their souls, not their bodies. “Notice they were martyred, killed for their love for Jesus. They're alive as disembodied souls. They're still aware of what happened to them on earth, and they're wondering, "When will you avenge our blood?" Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer. Now watch. Until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete or to be killed as they themselves had been. So did you catch it?” “Jesus told them what's going to take place. He said wait there are more Christians more of your brothers who will be killed like you because they love me and when their number is complete then I'll avenge you.” (These are martyrs that died for the Word of God throughout history, not for the church). They who have died who are in heaven did not know, nor are they prayed to. They are told this by Jesus. Which makes his argument moot on the overall point. Shamoun: “So did you catch two things? Number one, those who are dead in Christ are alive wearing white robes as souls. Their bodies have returned to us,” awaiting the Lord to come down with them, bring them down, and then raise all of you for what they've done to you. So are they aware of what takes place on earth and what will happen in the future definitely and it says their brethren.’ Yet his answer discounts his own argument of them hearing prayers of those on earth and ignoring that “Jesus told them what's going to take place” This is John’s vision, a revelation from Jesus.Nowehere does the bible imply that they in heaven are watching what is taking place on earth. God’s angels are made aware as they are ministering those on earth. It is their spirit that is in heaven without their body by death, They WIILL RETURN TO BE UNITED WITH THEIR body to be transformed when Jesus returns for the living, or resurrection for those who died. So how did these Saints enter heaven?…Rev.7:14 “they washed (purged) their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.” They did not go to purgatory first as the Roman church teaches of which Shamoun conveniently neglects to mention here, (so they can be fitted for heaven.) But the real point to be answered is, how do they, who are called saints by God become righteous without purgatory, without the Churches help? The Bibles answer: 2 Cor.5:21 “ we have the righteousness because of faith, Jesus blood cleanses us, which is our justification and Sanctification.” We who believe the gospel are holy and blameless before him because of Christ (Eph.1:1-14.) 1 Pt.1:18 “we were not redeemed by corruptible things like silver or gold(money as in indulgences) but by the precious blood of Christ.” But the Roman Church does not accept this. Do why would Shamoun promote this church and yet teach against what it teaches as doctrine? PURGATORY in the Roman Catholic Church Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) The Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence. (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), Romanism teaches, Sinners good deeds can be transferred over to one who is in need in purgatory. But why, Christ who is (God himself) work is not sufficient but sinners cleansed by his blood are? The Bible is clear there is no payment accepted for sin except the blood of God’s only Son on the cross. Again the Bible states in Rev.7:14 “they washed (purged) their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.” The concept of Purgatory is a denial of the finished work of Jesus, that all believers have been equally purified. (Titus 2:14; Heb. 1:3)The Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of Purgatory. Catholics believe that only a few people will go directly to heaven. For this reason they have chosen to make the books of the Maccabees part of Scripture. Though it was never accepted by the Jews or quoted by Jesus. There is NO "third place” for the purification of sins after death. The doctrine of purgatory is drawn from the Apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees, which is not included in the Hebrew Bible and was never quoted affirmed as Scripture by Jesus or the apostles. It is a made up tradition by the church. The New Testament consistently presents a clear picture of the afterlife as involving two eternal destinations—heaven and hell—without any intermediate state elsewhere. In 1299 Pope Boniface VIII declared a jubilee for 1300, and offered a plenary indulgence to those who should come and worship in St. Peter's in that year. It was estimated that on no day in those twelve months had Rome less than 200,000 strangers within her gates; and a total of 2,000,000 visitors, each with a modest offering, deposited such treasure before St. Peter's tomb that two priests, with rakes in their hands, were kept busy night and day collecting the coins. ` The Pope, “Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.”(Pope John Paul II, October 11, 1992, The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Page 413). According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1030, " All who die in God’s grace and friendship, …but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." So the blood of Christ that we read cleanses us from ALL SIN IS NOT APPLICABLE to believers by the teaching of Roman Catholicism. Rev 3:4. Yet, we read of those in Sardis who DID NOT defiled their garments 1 John 5:4 “ For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.” Our trust is in the gospel which is about Christ’s work of crucifixion not the works of saints afterwards. Rev 3:5”He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments’of which these Saints in heaven are clothed in, they overcame by their faith in christ’s blood. Shamoun begins to speak even MORE unrelated unbiblical CONCLUSIONS. “So let me tell you one sign that you belong toLast Verses & Explanation Jesus is your love for one another. Right? John 15:12-13. v. 13:”Love one another as I have loved you. By this the world shall know you're my disciples. Your love for one another and no greater love than this when you lay your life down for a friend. So if the Lord just told them, your brothers will be killed like you. You think now that they're perfect in love, they won't be praying for them. They'll definitely be praying for him.” Yes, they can pray for those on earth, but it does not say anything about hearing our prayers from those on who are on earth! His arguments are not from the Bible or based on the word but are convoluted using Rome’s view of traditions. How can God answer prayers that are not said to him. That cannot be asking ACCORDING TO HIS WILL.
Shamoun confuses they are praying FOR US from heaven convoluting that we are to Pray TO THEM in heaven from on earth. A great cloud of witnesses does not mean they see or hear everything we do on earth. They are witnesses of Jesus, who went before us. This is typical convoluted response Catholics have because OF THEIR WRONG CONCLUSIONS from made up traditions. Purgatory does not fit the bibles teaching but Shamoun’s personal ARGUMENT circumvents it. The many church traditions added over the years. None of which is taught in their Bible. His answers on these are very distorted and not what is taught IN the word that is clear. Some of the added traditions by their Popes, and the Roman Church. By 320 AD the clergy began to dress in garbs much like the Pharisees DID to be recognized. 375 AD The worship of Saints. 394 AD Mass becomes a daily ritual in the church. In 430 AD was beginning of exalting Mary the eternal virgin. The term mother of God was applied at the council of Ephesus. Here is a bible principle from Paul, that Shamoun should heed, not go beyond what is written, 1 Cor. 4:6 “ that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written,” Which is the category of these topics and the other traditions from Romanism. The idea of purgatory and prayers for the souls for cleansing was not accepted as a dogma of the Catholic Church, however, until 1459 at the Council of Florence. It was not known in the church to until A.D. 600 when Pope Gregory the Great introduced a third place, for the purification of one’s soul before they can enter heaven. In Roman Catholicism they sever people from Christ’s blood that cleanses of all their sin. Their Salvation comes through participation in the sacraments, penance, good works, as you further suffer for your sins in purgatory, hoping indulgences are used to reduce your time in purgatory. Masses and Rosaries are said on one's behalf even after one's death. Which means Catholics salvation is by works of men, the very contrast of "the gospel of grace. Which also means Jesus has nothing to do with this. Former priest, Joseph Zachello states, “ if there are sins that make a man not good enough for heaven, and yet not bad enough for hell, it is necessary to invent a place where those who die with venial sins unforgiven must go to be purged. Then the gold begins to shine, for it is easy to say, as the church of Rome teaches, that these souls in purgatory cannot help themselves, nor can God help them, but that they can be helped by a priest on earth saying mass for them. The offering for a requiem mass may be anything from $5 to $40 depending on "how much the traffic will bear." It was Pope Benedict the 15 th that granted an indulgence for 500 hundred days if people were found wearing the brown scapular and kissed it. This certainly bypasses the teaching of suffering to cleanse one from sin. It was Pope John the 22 nd that sold salvation for money and this traditional rite continues today. Zachello says,“Purgatory is a gold mine for the Catholic Church. But purgatory would be of little value were it not for the magical distinction between mortal and venial sins—the teaching of the Bible to the contrary notwithstanding. This teaching casts dishonor upon the redeeming work of the Incarnate Son of God. Purgatory takes away from the fullness of Christ's love for His church, and is a denial of the completeness and sufficiency of His sacrifice and mediatorial work.”(p.90 Secrets of Romanism by former priest Joseph Zachello. A Book all should read) The Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon," 983). The bible teaches what follows death, is judgment. Hebrews 9:27: "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." A person’s eternal state is determined at the time of their death not after. It is based on whether or not they trusted in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. There is no opportunity for a post-death purification. There is no process for further purification mentioned. It is at the final judgment, the dead are judged based on their deeds. Heaven is filled with those whose names are in the book of life. or they who die are in hell who are not. Jesus spoke of only two outcomes that lead to destruction or to life. Only two options, heaven or hell is presented as a final outcome. Purgatory gives the false hope of another option to reconcile their sin after death, (challenging the efficiency of Christ’s atonement). It is His finished work for our salvation (John 19:30). (Revelation 20:12–15 speaks of being in the book of life by being born spiritually Salvation is secured through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9) and emphasizes that after death, ones eternal destinations are set. Other doctrines Shamoun has A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE FROM The Bible. The gospel message, Faith plus works for salvation are necessary. Its not Scripture only (sola Scriptura), Jews Israel and anti Semitism, Zionism and their covenant. He says are not the chosen today? That all the promises of God for them ae fulfilled (just like the Roman church had taught. The Eucharist is the body of Jesus, Baptism, Mary, When you receive the holy spirit These will cover in depth what he days they are and what the bible defines them ad. p.4 The gospel message |
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