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Jn14 is a promise of the churches future Scripture does not give a time for the catching away of the saints, both alive and dead. The rapture is at the same time as the resurrection, these are not two different events, in fact the resurrection is the first phase of the reversing the sin that was ingrained in mankind since the fall In succession The Old Testament speaks of the resurrection numerous times while the rapture, the change to those who are strictlyalive at this time who are ‘in christ’ are sequentially changed into their immortal sinless bodies forever after those who are raised from the dead first. Too many make a micro issue into a macro and bring confusion. Some people want all this explained by a single verse. But the way they have understood the Scripture cannot fit this stupendous event. They do not accept the Biblical view because they can’t understand it. They got confused by all the contrary voices that speak of different views and oppose this taking place. Yes there is a rapture, just as there will be a resurrection. One needs to put all the Scriptures together on the table and carefully understand them. Jn.14 is explained by 1 Thess. 4:17 we do not meet him in the air only to immediately come back, or to stay in the air as floaters. We are taken to heaven. Why? Because Jesus said before he left to go there that he is preparing a place for us there. There is a New Jerusalem and there is such a thing called the marriage of the lamb where the church throughout all of history is judged as individuals to receive rewards for our individual works. The bible also explains all the saints return with him at the second coming that will end the tribulation, we are already glorified ready to rule on earth under his kingship that will be established in Zion, Jerusalem on earth for 1000 years (Rev 19:14-15). We are ;’The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses . Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.” The Old Testament does refer to the Lords return, Zech. 14:5-7 “ Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.” As Jude 14-15 writes of what, Enoch the seventh from Adam, prophesied saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Let me bring out some points that are often overlooked or are not covered. The New Testament explains further Rv.1:7-8: “Behold he is coming with clouds, and every eye will see him.”The clouds of heaven are a description of the glory He comes with. The same glory that is referred to when he ascended into heaven. His return is seen by all, for the whole world will be in physical darkness At this time as the glorious light of God’s glory breaks into our atmosphere with the armies of heaven following him, saints and angels. Acts 1:10 tells us His disciples saw him ascend to heaven, and were told He would return from heaven the same way. John describes the glory He comes with as the same described of him in heaven, “and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength” (Rv. 1:16, the same description as described in the transfiguration). He comes in the glory of His Father (Matt.16:27). “The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven … and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” The sign is God’s glory, a light unlike any other. God’s glory is seen by all on the earth no matter where they are located. This visible glory reveals to the whole world who he actually is. And their reaction, “all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” Paul also speaks of a mystery, this is something that was not revealed in the Old Testament. This is a major doctrine for those ‘in Christ’ that is revealed in the New Testament by the app``ointed apostles. Since the second coming is revealed in the Old Testament it cannot be that mystery that Paul is speaking of. First, it is dealing with both the Gentiles and the Jews together, those who believe in the Messiah who came and died and rose f rom the dead. The resurrection/ the rapture of those in Christ is not the same as the second coming that was clearly taught in the Old Testament for the saints. The rapture, the catching away of those living with those who have died is not spoken of UNTIL the New Testament, as a mystery revealed for those who are in Christ. Revealed to the apostles. Paul has explained to the Corinthian church the 7 feast days, which are all about Christ, and 4 feasts have already literally been fulfilled by Christ. There are 3 fall feasts left. One of them is the feast of Trumpets. It is the first of the fall feasts that are to be fulfilled. Jesus did not teach is what John taught on the trumpets judgments that are in his book of the Revelation, which were written at least 30 plus years after Jesus ascended. These are not the same trumpets. We need to understand that what Paul is teaching is long before the Revelation judgments John laid out in succession in Rev. Paul explains that the first 4 of the feasts were fulfilled by Jesus, on the very feast days mentioned in the Old Testament, all within 50 days of his death and resurrection at his first coming. So there is a summer period of preparing before the last 3 feast days are to be fulfilled for the second coming. This is also known in scripture as the former and latter rain, the former rain is in the spring, latter rain in the fall separated by a summer season, a preparation time for harvest. The various types of churches are clearly identified and addressed before the Great tribulation begins, but they are not directly spoken of throughout the Tribulation taking place on earth, instead God uses the general word ‘saints.’ This is because not all saints are church saints. There were saints before Christ came, and there will be saints after the church is gone. What this means is that holy ones (saints) are in contrast to the worlds unholy ones, who will have their desires come to fruition in the time of lawlessness which is to be ruled over by the lawless one that will deceive the whole world that reject the true Christ (2 Thess.2:2) to follow him instead. God calls the called out ones as saints just as he called the righteous saints before Christ came. The word Saint in the Old Testament in Hebrew-chaciyd- faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious one. Ps. 16:3 "As for the saints who are on the earth, "They are the excellent ones, in whom is all my delight." In the rest of the New Testament after the book of Acts, Church members are identified as saints, brethren. These become fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,” (Eph. 2:19). As the Church developed, what is called the body of Christ. This meant membership in Christ himself by Spirit baptism 1 Cor.12:13. You can follow Christ, his teachings and be a disciple and not be saved, or, you can be saved and follow Jesus which makes you a saint, one of the brethren, being part of the Church. This term “Saint” was first used in the New Testament after the resurrection. When Annanias said Paul did many evil things to the Saints in Jerusalem (Acts 9:13 as when he put the saint’s in prison, and put many to death, Acts 26:10). The word Saint applied show’s ones new position in Christ as they are set aside for the Lords service, All the saved of the New Testament era are saints (hagioi) by virtue of their position "in Christ," they are church saints. But again, Scripture teaches us that not all saints are church saints, there were saints before the creation of the church and there will be saints when the church is completed, mature, removed from the earth. There were saints for thousands of years before Acts 2, when the church was officially birthed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. This is why there was no church in the Old Testament, it was strictly Jews. There was Israel, a nation, a theocracy under God. If one wrongly believes these saints are the Church in the Old Testament, they will likely find the church through the whole bible and in the Tribulation period. We are told that ‘the day of the Lord’ is called the tribulation, Paul says it will not overtake the believer who is awake 1 Thess.5. Lk.21 tells us this Tribulation will affect all on the face of the earth, everywhere. Once it begins You can’t escape it, few will survive all the devastation, the judgements. It is the same today, when an earthquake or another type of disaster takes place, do only Christians survive? Are they supernaturally protected? No, they are not. If Rev. 3:10 means God keeps the saints safe on earth, then one must face that God does not keep his promise. Because Scripture describes saints are being killed throughout the Tribulation time period. They are the main target of the enemy, including Israel. Rev 12:11”and they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death ” It says the antichrist overcomes them, they die. From this we can know the dominionism, church triumphalism, kingdom now being taught today is false. But so is the teaching that the saints are protected in the Tribulation like Israel was in the Land of Goshen in Egypt. Dan 7:21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them” Therefore these saints cannot be church saints. Rev. 13:7 “ It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation Even the two witnesses it says Rev. 11:7 “Now when they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. Not too promising to be going through this and watching even the two witnesses be slain. There is no escape. All The saints must be prepared to die because the antichrist overcomes the saints all through the tribulation period. If only those who survive the antichrist elimination will be raptured. The church in heaven If it is strictly a post tribulation rapture for the saints, or the church). The church does not see or go to heaven? We go up as Christ comes (at the second coming) into the atmosphere. And we come right back down to the earth with him at the second coming because he comes to rule and reign from Zion (Isa.2).
Then we do not to meet him for him to lead us in a procession to where he
has prepared the place in heaven (as he described in John 14:1-3).
This cannot be the same time or event that he comes as a lion to destroy the armies of the antichrist all by himself that try to wipe out Israel. God’s enemies are destroyed at Armageddon (see Zeph. 1:17-3:1, and shortly after are judged ) Rev.19 all those who return with him (Saints) were given white robes to return with Jesus as he comes to Megiddo first and slays the armies of the world gathered there all by himself (stains his garment with their blood) as all the Church Saints watch safely with the angels from the vantage point in the sky. So the rapture, the catching way of the church and the second coming are two different events we should not be quick to give a retort as some do, but actually hear what someone is saying without the intent of deciding with prejudice what the truth is from the Scripture. If the whole church is left on the earth during the whole tribulation then all the previous examples of the righteous being removed from judgments are invalid. Some say they were not all removed from the earth in times past. That’s correct. Because then b the whole earth was not judged, only a segment. But in the Tribulation the whole earth is to be judged, severely. Unlike any other time in history according to Jesus. The devastation is described as the same result of the flood. Unless one believes the earth was only flooded in a certain area, which makes many of the statements in Genesis inconsequential. The example of Noah, illustrates he was instructed to build the ark for all the types of animals and people. The door was closed once he entered the ark as his family was gathered together. They rose above the waters of judgment. There are enough parallels to find elsewhere. There are differences in judgments. The judgment coming is not secluded for a certain area, but a worldwide event. Beleivers will be scattered throughout the world not gathered in one place on earth to be safe. Scripture also says Lk.18:8 “when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" Making this even more problematic. This tells us that the faith will not be abundant, it will be scarce, hard to find as few believers survive. He returns to earth is not the same event as coming for his bride, a purified faithful church to resurrect and rapture them, so these cannot be at the same time. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 “ And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.’ This wrath is described in the tribulation period that is yet future. The wrath are his judgments continually sent upon the world to repent. Revelation 3:10 “ Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” We find these statements continually made. The question that needs to be decided is when does his wrath begin, is it a full 7 years before or partially into the 7 years. To teach that the Church will go through the whole 70th weekjust doesn't line up with the Bible. During the 70th week the book of Revelation will be fulfilled....with the seal judgments, trumpet judgments, 7 thunders, and vial judgments. This is the WRATH of God the Church is to have no part of it. After the 6 th seal is opened, Rev.7 after the 144,000 are sealed we read v.9 “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, Rev 7:13-15 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, " Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. These are the first group of martyrs that go to heaven, the elimination process begins early on. it is after this the trumpets go in succession to judge the world. the Second Coming are described like the Days of Noah and the Days of Lot. We see a principle throughout history.that God does not pour out His judgment, his wrath UNTIL He had safely removed those who are faithful, Enoch is an example of the believer walking in the Spirit pleasing God "By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: 'He could not be found, because God had taken him away.' For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God" (Hebrews 11:5). Both Noah and Lot were brought to a safe place. Those who expect the Church, the Bride of Christ to be on earth to endure the full impact of the Wrath of God....and the question is WHY? Why must the church endure the Wrath of God? To be purified? We are purified by his blood. It just doesn't make any sense, his wrath is said is for those who do not believe, to repent. Jesus said"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also .”Two points, he prepared a place for us in heaven and He does not leave us as orphans, he comes back to receive us to himself to take us there. Rev.13 is for the individual believer at the time to calculate the number of the counterfeit Messiah. His name being equal to this number becomes apparent in the middle of the Tribulation when this number is issued for allegiance to him as he exalts his name above God’s as he becomes the worlds religious leader from formerly being a politician. Matt 24:6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.”That end being the apocalypse. John 14:1-3" Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. If you are in the tribulation waiting fro christ,you will have to endure 7 years. V.14:27-31 "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. "I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. "But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. The early church was wrong saying that the woman of Rev.12 is the church “ Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.hThen being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.” Satan gathered all the fallen angels at this time to oppose Jesus to be born an then in his ministry Rev 12:5-6 “She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Rev.12:1-6 is related to Gen.37:9, women here is Israel the 1 st 5 verses are histories past, vs.4 Satan attempted to kill Jesus at his first coming Mt.2:16, vs.5 he is caught up to Gods throne after the atonement is made by him. “Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days . This refers to the last half of the Tribulation 3 ½ years. Satan loses his battle in heaven with Michael and the angels and is then is confined to the earth and has only a short time. Vs.13 Satan then begins a vicious Jewish campaign of annihilation. He knows the one condition for christ to come back is for Israel to repent and ask him to come. Though he is killing all believers who can give the gospel,he is especially targeting the Jews.Mt.24:15 Jesus tells us that Israel flees to a specific place prepared for her vs.7-12. Zech.13:8 only 1/3 rd survive the tribulation 2/3 do not. The feast days point to Christ, not judgments and they are in succession. We must understand the Big picture first before one understand the smaller details, pieces. When we put together a puzzle we must know the picture it is to make first so the pieces fit. The Lord has not given us a doctrinal treatise on prophecy, liken to the book of Romans to salvation. The Revelation trumpets that are blown are judgments toward the earth none of these are a call to gather saints with Christ The feasts are in order of the 7 feast days these are prophecies of the messiah there are patterns in order, first is the feasts of trumpets, the gathering of the saints in christ (the Church) to Christ. I don’t say I know everything on this matter but I do know enough to distinguish the flaws people hold in the overall picture Again, there were saints in the old Testament but they could not be called the church since this was before the new covenant was enacted. the church was not yet officially born until Acts 2 when thwe holy Spirit was sent in a visible, audible an glorious way. the early church knew who Jesus is and defended him among the pagan cultures teachers., of the other gods. Let me bring out some points that are overlooked. Using the early church as a basis for truth in prophecy is a tormented premise . And heres why.The early church stood against those who denied the person of Christ but prophecy is different. Prophecy is one of the hardest portions of theology to understand because you are dealing with many things that are not yet fulfilled. For the early church it was understood that Israel being scattered so this was fulfilled at a certain time. But they could not have known what would come next because Israel had to be restored to set the stage, GOD WAS YET TO BRING HIS PEOPLE FROM the 4 corners of the earth back into the land. Going to the early church writers, for answers on prophecy cannot be fully accurate because we are told it is sealed until the end. Acts 1:6-7 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His ownauthority.” Clearly this is a restoration not to the church, but to Israel. For the kingdom to come to Israel, all of Israel must be saved (Zech.12:10). They had no reestablishment of the land of Israel nor complete understanding of prophecy, for much of it is said to be sealed until the end of the age. until the "time of the end"; in other words, it could not be understood until this special period of history. In addition to other clues, Gabriel gave him two key conditions that would prevail at that time: "travel and education (knowledge) shall be vastly increased" (chapter 12, verse 5, Living Bible).
So anything the early church used specifically cannot be used as the basis because we are told when it would be understood. Even a rapture is not fully understood until hundreds of years later on timing with the scripture Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy , and to anoint the Most Holy.
So it was impossible for the church to know, as for Daniel this information,
Travel: World travel, and even interstate travel, was minimal until this
century. It was not until the middle of this century that travel literally
expanded. The main factor was the advent of the jet aircraft engine -- which
was first used on a commercial airliner in the 1950s! Without a doubt,
travel has "vastly increased" since then. If there is no restoration of Israel, there will be no 3 rd temple built as so many prophecies speak of. Israel is the most crucial country for the prophetic writers. It is a necessity for prophecy to take place. And Jerusalem is the most crucial of all cities in the world, God calls is it Zion, where he will be present to rule over the nations (Zech. 14). |
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